Have a random thought bouncing around my head. It revolves around how Scouts, being initiates into the chapter and not quite yet a battle brother, run around all sneaky, infiltrating and scouting all over the place, then upon elevating to battle brother status forgets all that crap. There can be reasons for this, but really it seems even in the fluff that battle brothers have almost forgotten how to do all that infiltrating.
And really, there is no reason tactical marines, or any other marines should not know how to infiltrate. There is the practicality aspect, as terminator armor isn't very sneaky, so yeah I can see why they aren't popping up randomly without teleporters. Assault marines have noisy jet packs, so again, I can see why they aren't infiltrating either. "hey whats that loud obnoxious whining coming from over there" "oh its nothing ignore it".
A few chapters that specialize in certain skills do have some ability to do this, like raven guard and white scars, but only to a certain degree. So why don't the majority of chapters retain this skill? Why is it lost when scouts become battle brothers?
It could boil down simply to: We are too manly and awesome to do that sneaky shit anymore. Let the scouts do it. Its a valid argument, but one thats not really supported too much in the fluff. At the very least its not explicitly mentioned that's why they don't sneak around anymore stabbing people in the back of their faces.
It may seem silly to think about, but really there should be nothing stopping tac marines from sneaking around, especially the ones that are latest to be elevated to battle bro. They should be all like "hey guys I know this cool trick where we sneak up on the enemy and face stab them." Are the rest like "no fuck that, lets walk in the open and get shot in the face like a man!"
I'm not arguing that all tac marines should get infiltrate and scout in game, as that would be pretty brutal to have 60 tacs show up 18" away from your army and then go bolter death blossom on you. As cool for marines that would be, thats not a great game mechanic for an army.
So I don't know why marines seem to forget the sneaky bits when they become battle bros, prob just as simple as, we are above that crap now, save it for the scouts. But they should still KNOW how to do it, even if they don't want to anymore.
What are your thoughts on it?
GG
In the fluff (e.g. "Hunt for Voldorius") Raven Guard are described as using special stealth armor with reduced sound and heat output. From that we can assume that regular power armor is quite noisy and the colorful heraldry of most chapters will not help with covert operations either. From a strategic standpoint I always thought of the Astartes as shock troops which will not need much stealth capability after initial reconnaissance. That said many Astartes are described as being sneaky in the fluff regardless of chapter or equipment so you do in fact have a point in mentioning this.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I just don't buy that power armor is that noisy, nor that scouts are less colorful as nearly all have the same colors of their chapter, and camo cloaks aren't universally used by scouts in the fluff, so that isn't the reason. Basically its a just because argument, plus the I'm too manly argument. But it is true that the raven guard have special armor, I forgot about that.
DeleteThere is also the argument that not every chapter has bright "glow in the dark" colour schemes, take the dark angles for example, they'll blend in nicely in a dark wood.
DeleteMy conclusion is that the Infiltration rule has nothing to do with the actual ability of a tactical marine to perform covert actions but the strategic function of his squad. Infiltration is a task given to specialized units, in most cases to the recruits serving in 10th company. And only those special units will get the according rules for gameplay. Just have a look at Space Wolves where it's actually veterans fulfilling that role. Space Marines do not lose their Infiltration expertise they just have no use for it while serving in anything other than their chapter's specific Reconnaissance units.
DeleteThe fluff basically supports the whole "Too manly" theory, sadly. Plus, even Power Armor is fairly noise, big, and, humorously, colorful. An Ultramarine is going to have a hard time being sneaky when he is also a big blue target. Scout armor, on the other hand, is a lot quieter and isn't always one big slice of the rainbow looking to be seen.
ReplyDeletePart of the reason why chapters like Raven Guard are so universally sneaky is because they have special tech, which they don't share, that lowers the sounds and even grants limited active camo to power armor. Cool stuff really.
Yeah, but scouts still do sport the same colors as their chapter, and camo cloaks aren't universally used so its not that alone. Basically I see it as a justification of well marines don't scout just because/I'm too manly
DeletePower Armour is to blame. Have a look at the Heresy Era army lists: "Scouts" come with Power Armour by default but can't infiltrate, and have the option to downgrade to Scout Armour to gain infiltrate.
ReplyDeleteInteresting about the heresy scouts, didn't know that. I guess I can buy into the whole armor thing, but stealthyness is less about the equipment and more about your skills.
DeleteSkills make tacs effective infiltrators. There's fluff example of a RG legionnaire who trained directly under Corax, and seems to have some degree of psychic ability to support this. Combined with the "rites of silence" to modify his power armor and compact jump pack, he was invisible and silent, even to the auto-senses of other Astartes' armor.
DeleteOther fluff justification of not sneaking (during great crusade), the Astartes were designed as shock troops, and the psychiological impact of invincible, brutal and nonetheless skilled giants was supported by clearly showing their enemy that they are coming for them.
Besides fluff, there's a reason you can't infiltrate tons of power armor on the table, and it's the same reason Astartes per rules aren't invincible killing machines that wipe out entire armies with just a tac squad. It's just a game, and rules have limitations in order to be balanced. In Heresy rules, legion tactics are considerably stronger than 40k chapter tactics, and the sneaky legions can indeed infiltrate/scout. Either infiltrate non-jump/TDA infantry (Raven Guard) or absolutely everything that ain't a vehicle (Alpha Legion). That enables a powerful first strike, but will always be negated by their opponent's more direct chapter tactics (+1T against shooting, furious charge etc.) later on, so it isn't unbalanced.
It's always a little odd I think when the fluff is different than the game, you'd have thought that they would make the two as close as possible. But then I guess, what sells books is different to what sells models/games.
DeleteWell, an old WD had a ruleset for Astartes as they should be. Multiple wounds, higher toughness, rerollable armor save and several other extras if I recall correctly. For 1500p you would get 5 marines, if you keep them cheap you can even upgrade one to a sergeant.
DeleteOf course, this would definitely impact on sales. An apocalypse army would only require a box of tacticals and a rhino/drop pod, definitely less than you usually field or put on the shelf to look pretty.
Doesn't an armored Space Marine weigh something like 1000lbs? Seems cumbersome and noisy to me. Think of all the noise you character makes in the video game Space Marine.
ReplyDeleteSpace Marines Know How to Infiltrate because they don't have CREEEEEED!!!
ReplyDeleteThey are lacking his tactical genius!
DeleteIn the THQ Video Game "Space Marine" you play as a Space Marine. I think it's a pretty realistic rendering of what a 1000 pound, 10 foot tall superhuman would be like in reality. You're enormous, loud, and brutal. As a walking fortress, it would be rather hard to sneak.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understand in the fluff, Scout's aren't fully "grown" yet, so they aren't massive, 500 pound humans yet. And they don't have the massive armour.
Another element may be the Space Marine attitude. The fluff often talks about how Adeptus Astartes think that Vindicare Assassin's are dishonorable. Maybe becoming a full-fledged marine give them the "honour before reason" bravado...
I would like to point out that older versions of power armour were described as noisy. Newer models have never been depicted as making any more noise than the marine wants them to make. I also recall it being mentioned that corvus armour (avalable to almost all chapters) is considered the quietest.
ReplyDeletehttp://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour#Mark_6_.22Corvus_Armour.22
All this being said, I play templar, we don't scout. Our neophytes fight with the initiates, not as a sneaky support element.
As others have said, I think it is the power armour that is noisy, although I bet Alpha Legion astartes have perfected quiet power armour. Guess if the rumours about Chaos Legions later this year turn out to be true, we may find out.
ReplyDelete