First lets talk about terminology, as seen above you have one common one thrown around: Power gamer. He is that guy, the one that brings the latest and greatest toys and tricks to stomp people around. But then you have the "normal" tournament player who has his competitive list and plays to win, but he's not an ass hole like the other guy. So here we have an interesting divide. What makes someone different from a power gamer to just a competitive one? Is it attitude, is it personal, is it what he plays? I think a lot comes down to personal honestly. The delineation here between the two often comes down to what you feel, which stems from whether you like the guy or not. Now his attitude is going to feed into how you feel and is certainly the number one factor in deciding that, but if you like the guy, you probably aren't going to consider him a power gamer. Attitudes differ, I am rough around the edges and curse and am in general abrasive. If you know me and have spent any amount of time around me you know its a complete act and that I'm soft and fluffy on the inside and its not that I don't like you. Some people like it or hate it and I'm sure there are people at my FLGS that think I'm one of "those guys". And I do like to win as much as i love my fluff so they wouldn't be completely wrong in doing so. I don't believe in being shown or given mercy and like to play to the bitter end, rarely will I call a game if I'm losing and if an opponent wants to call it I will try and convince him to keep playing.
Some can see that as rubbing someones face in it, keep on playing and crushing them, I just don't consider giving up and have dug my self out of so many holes just by continuing to play. Now you have the other side of the spectrum which are fluff bunnies. They have a loving history of their army, names for many models with detailed exploits, their army follows the way of war for its chosen side. They care not for what the allies chart says, those armies will never see each other except for the opposite side as far as they are concerned. They see power gamers as twisting the game into something it should not be, ruining the years of fluff about their armies (Tau+SM), and are concerned with playing a setting, not so much a competition. They love the back stories, the art, the unique rules that represent the fluff of their armies. They despise any departure from the fluff and any attempt to twist the game into a balanced knife edge of just models moving and rolling dice.
Now there is some intended hyperbole there, as the extreme is far easier to see than the middle. But is that all, are there two "factions" of 40k players? Well I think there is a third and that is what I like to call the hobby bunny/snob for the extreme ones. These are the ones who generally care very little for the playability of the models, how its supposed to fit into its parent army and the history behind it, but instead like them because they are cool. They are your artists, and I do mean artists for the level of skill that they display. On the extreme end these tend to be the people that enforce painting and basing standards into tournaments, who look down their nose at unpainted models on the board. They may not particularly care for winning or whether or not the Cadian 438th would ally with the emperors children, but they like the models and they look sweet. For me I honestly find the extreme hobby snobs to be my least favorites, in the end for me this hobby is about playing a game with someone, so an unpainted model is no game breaker for me and even if someone has a lot of unpainted models that is ok. I know what a struggle it is for me to paint and try and give the benefit of the doubt to other players.
So these three groups of gamers and all in between make up our hobby, and I do mean make it up, as all of your thoughts and beliefs have as much if not a greater affect on the game than any single rule that GW issues. Generally these groups do well to balance each other, the competitive community keeps the fluff bunnies on their toes and lets them know that yes you are going to have to play with good units too and not just the ones that were really good in that one BL novel. Fluff bunnies call power gamers on their shit and let them know that its not just a narrow competition of victory and defeat, you can just hang around a BS while rolling dice too. The Hobby snobs give everyone else a standard to achieve too, even if some are a little self aggrandizing in their skills and can steer the game too much away from the actual gaming part of it. Sorry if you want to have a painting competition go have one, stop trying to make tournaments into one!
I think the Internet community is a microcosm of the extremes, as inherently the people that believe in their views the hardest tend to be the ones that shout the loudest. As a relatively recent addition, I noticed though a prevailing pessimism online, either about GW, the direction of the game, competitive play etc. This is by far not the only thing out there and there are many who try and keep positive and happy. For my I do try to, I have no desire to become one of those that shouts the doom and gloom of 40k. I have been around 40k a while so its hard for me to believe that so many are throwing in the towel. I have certainly taken breaks, I left the game for a while at the ned of 4th, came back in 5th, left near the end, and then came back for 6th, though to be fair the army had a say in me leaving 40k the last time.
I guess I just find it so hard to believe people see this game needing banning, that things are so quickly stomped down. Escalation is a perfect example, I have already talked a little about it though so you can read my thoughts on it in that article. Why the doom and gloom people, a single game was played where a revenant titan beat the crap out of an army completely unprepared to face it at all. Wow thats so revelatory! Should comp be instituted in tournaments, no I really don't think so. Is the seer council and screamer star hard to kill and can be un fun? Yep it can be. But there are ways to defeat it sucks. What we can do is push for FAQ from GW to change it, house rule it, or just accept it and move on.
I don't see the banning that is mentioned on 3++ as being the right call. But IDK. I have changed my views on things over the last 6 months or so, and i will admit the online community has led me to that. I used to be totally against FW, no FW in tournaments, super heavies should stay in apoc, etc. Well know Im not so sure. I think its up to the TO and their discretion in how they want to play the game as they think it should be. That is always what it comes down to. Its a few people or just one person's opinion on how the game should play. Now you don't have to attend any tournaments, none at all. And if you don't like where the TOs take the game, let them know and don't go. If you do, then go have a great time. That is as always your own call.
For me if a TO banned escalation, I would be ok, as they are essentially only banning a one use FoC slot, and if no one has access to it then thats fine, up until a few days ago no one had it so thats not a major change. But partially banning or comping I do not like, as that is completely subjective. You say no D weapons, does that include the close combat D attacks as well, what about vortex? You see where this becomes an issue? Since escalation is so contained, I see is as something that can be banned or not allowed for tournament play.
Should it though. I say let it happen, lets see where this takes us before we come down too harshly on it. Fluff bunnies, don't let the Comp skew the game too far in one direction, but that also means you can only have say if you are going to these events. I think super heavies will be just fine and in the end, the fluff bunnies, power gamers, and hobby snobs will work it out and a consensus will be reached. In the end we are a community, and that is far more important than the rules that we play by.
As always leave comments and feel free to read whatever else is on this site.
GG
I'm probably closer to fluff bunny than power gamer (despite by Russ lists) and not at all a hobbyist but I do appreciate that a tournament is the place for power gamers. Period. At the same time, Escalation (especially Str D weapons) takes a few things too far and I've no problem at all with banning D weapons or even the whole book (though the inability to take a Baneblade would make me sad.) At the end though, it is up to the tournaments themselves to decide where they want to fall. I, for one, agree with Feast of Blades (see my own blog for my opinion) and would like to see it spread to other events. At the same time, a few Escalation friendly events could be fun but should probably have very high point values to compensate for the extreme destructive potential on the table.
ReplyDeleteI think you either ban all of escalation or non, there are too many ways that can unfairly affect certain armies. Tournaments should be about competition, but for me I see competition more as out thinking your opponent on the board rather than who brings the best list. I disagree with how far feast of blades is going and agree with the guest articles on frontline. I don't think you need too ban too much. Its there call in the end though, I prob won't be going either way.
DeleteAs a "fluff bunny" (someone who has fun lists but plays competitively) for me a power gamer is entirely based on their attitude. A common phrase i hear for imperial guard advice is "take 3 vendettas, you need to have at least 3 and in different squadrons". Its that kind of attitude that bugs me for a few reasons:
ReplyDeleteLeads to a lack of variety
The armies can look really really bland, like seeing a tau army with 12 fire warriors allied with far sight kinda thing.
And lastly the rules bending. For example online there is an argument about how searchlights work. Some people trying to say that a unit thats been hit by a searchlight cannot be targeted beyond 36" still.
So for me its the attitude that defines a Power Gamer. But in a social setting people end up compromising into a mix of everyone's play styles so what i see on the internet hasn't happened here at my club yet.
As an Ex "Power Gamer" i noticed my attitude towards the game had a huge effect on someone else fun along with my fun as winning by turn 2-3 really gets boring. But its the kinda thing thats different to everyone at the end of the day. A balanced approach is the best way to go in a social setting.
So my friends and i play models we like in a friendly matter. Like not taking flyers if your opponent cant hurt them or allowing proxies every so often and so on.
DeleteAttitude makes all the difference. I play in a group that pretty much lets you play as you want, it can be competitive but most people run multiple armies and test out new stuff all the time, so few people play the power builds and if they do its just a couple of times before moving on.
DeleteRetarded rules arguing is my biggest pet peeve and things like above that make no sense at all do get me going. That is one thing that will set me off at the store when someone tries to argue like that.
Yep, attitude is the decisive factor.
DeleteThere ware powergamers, using the latest broken spam netlist to repeatedly stomp everyone, and try to bend the rules to their favor, even if it's clearly nonsense.
Playing against them isn't fun at all, it's repetitive and requires hard counters regularly, luckily there are few around here.
And there are powerful gamers, those up and running for several years, who can table you with literally any list because they are the more experienced players.
You can learn a lot when playing against them, there's always a friendly atmosphere, and the lists are usually to try some rarely used unit or try to make fluff lists work on the table.
And with fluff list I don't mean regular armies, rather Catachans as in the old fluff, or the Crimson Fists with what's left after Rynn, something you rarely ever see and you can learn a lot from.
As for the other types, my FLGS doesn't have any of the extreme types.
Escalation (for example) is scheduled for certain days, so whoever wants to play it can show up then, whoever doesn't want to doesn't need to.
That is good, its fun to have those people around. I like a good mix as having a few powergamers around can be a good thing, they keep the group on their toes and as long as you have enough people that will keep them from pulling horrible shennanigans they are ok.
DeleteIts good way to do it, schedule the days for what is being played. Its nice because its a pain in the ass to drive out there and then show up and no one wants to play the game you are playing.
lucky none of the people I play with are power gamers, (despite to BA death company list) but the few I've fun in to have been pretty arrogant, which doesn't make for a fun game.
ReplyDeleteas for the internet lot, its a lot easier to bitch and moan online and to a wider audience. I dont think lots of people arn't going to be affected by the two new releases as most people won't field superheavies or fortifications outside of tournaments much anyway. I might be wrong but there not cheap and most people I know don't own one.
and as a very fluffy player I can't say I really care, I'll keep playing to have fun.
lucky none of the people I play with are power gamers, (despite to BA death company list) but the few I've fun in to have been pretty arrogant, which doesn't make for a fun game.
ReplyDeleteas for the internet lot, its a lot easier to bitch and moan online and to a wider audience. I dont think lots of people arn't going to be affected by the two new releases as most people won't field superheavies or fortifications outside of tournaments much anyway. I might be wrong but there not cheap and most people I know don't own one.
and as a very fluffy player I can't say I really care, I'll keep playing to have fun.
Fortifications aren't that expensive, aegis is command squad price range, they certainly go up but you can get multiple fortifications for the cost of a super heavy. But I agree that most people won't be using these books to the extent thats available due to cost, the full on wall of martyrs can set you back a couple of baneblades if you go all out with it.
DeleteI just bought Escalation and... was expecting some D weapon storm or something like that. And its not there.
ReplyDeleteYes, some superheavies are strong, but IMO their cost makes them potentially dangerous weakness. Its not scoring, some D weapons are melee... Revenant seems like obvious number one, but for 900 points he is viable from 2000pts battles higher. And for 900 points you can swamp him with lascannon blobs. Or fill sky with vendettas. Or throw army of vanquishers (ahd hope they wont get fried first turn, OK:)).
But my point is that reaction for Escalation is rather overreaction. Its five units with non-melee D weapons. But ppl already see it as only revenant armies :)
Its absolutely overreaction. One game was played one the internet and OMG its all over!!! They are overcosted and for the actual amount of hull points, you can destroy even the biggest ones with weight of fire. Vendettas or vanquishers with prescience will crush them given a turn of shooting.
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