Wednesday, June 4, 2014

Scions: Astra Militarum vs Militarum Tempestus


I have been on my Scion kick for quite a while now, with no sign of stopping (I just bought the Storm Scion deal, more to follow on that).  In my recent tournament experience I got to test my Scions against some serious enemies, including a seer council, really just a lot of eldar and some Tau.  Which are powerful enemies to be sure, but I still have other tough ones to face and see how they do.  Despite that I have found them to be a tenacious army that keeps on punching till the end.  They are tough to use right but when done so they excel.  Now the big question is whether to take Scions out of the main IG codex, or out of the MT codex.  The answer to that depends on what you want your Scions to do.

I have been regularly using them as my main army and have done well with them.   The main weakness of the army is in lack of heavy weapons and limited options.  Their strength lies in their orders and warlord traits (most of them), plus having 4+ save bodies running around with AP3 guns.

Before we go too deep, we should look at what the Scions themselves are, and what they do well and then look at how they fit into each army.  Off the bat they are basic veteran guardsmen profile with BS4 and Ld 8 for Sgt(tempestor or whatever).  They have Carapace armor and Frag & Krak, hot shot lasguns, and the Sgt has pistol and ccw.  They have the move through cover special rule, which has some important implications.  The Commander (prime) has Ld 9 and clarion vox net which gives scion units within 18" his leadership for tests besides orders.  The command squad can take same upgrades and such that platoon command squad can take, with weapon options being limited to scion weapons, no heavies.

What you have then is decently durable squads that have good basic weapons with two special weapons based on role that have good leadership and can move through cover.  They are best used with mobility in mind due to the limited range (18") of their rifles.  Due to move through cover, they ignore the dangerous terrain test incurred if they scatter when jumping out of valkyries/vendettas.  This is a role to keep in mind for them.

They can take Taurox Primes as their transports, and Chimeras if taken out of AM.  Since their minimum squad size is 5, they can also hitch rides in vendettas.  The next big thing that affects them is orders.  This is where the scions change and have certain advantages.

With MT, you have twin linked, which eliminates the need for prescience(but not necessarily psykers).  You have sniper and pinning(showing this was written with 7th in mind), rending against MCs and vehicles, preferred enemy, crusader, and fleet.  So out of MT what you really are getting is force multipliers that take the scions weapons over the edge.  The sniper order is great for targeting units of T4 or higher with 3+ save or higher, Rending is great for giving you an edge against vehicles and tough MCs. Note though when fighting a wraith knight that the sniper order is better as your ap is already good enough.  Preferred enemy is good for plasma weapons, ensuring you hit and wound most of the time and lessen the impact of gets hot.  Crusader and Fleet are good if you occaisionally need the bonus in CC or running, and will be useful when you need to move and have no significant targets.

With MT the focus of orders is on the Scions themselves and it really does give them an edge that they do not have in the AM book.  The rending and sniper/pinning orders are some of the best, allowing you to wound high toughness models reliably and give even hot shots a chance against vehicles when done right.  So if you are taking them out of MT, you are building squads that are going to be hunting tougher units and making good use of plasma and melta.

With AM you have pinning, which isn't bad, precision shot, split fire, shoot and run, tank hunters, ignore cover, get back in the fight, first rank, and move move move.  Now the big ones here are split fire, shoot and run, ignore cover, first rank, and tank/MC hunter.  While the precision and pinning aren't bad, the MT order is better, as it is straight sniper and includes those rules as well and has the bonus of wounding on 4+.  The shoot and run is an advantage for valk dropping scions, as they can fire their weapons and then run to spread out, so if you are considering a significant number of these guys, you should consider bringing them from the AM book.  First rank is good as it boosts your number of shots, but most of its effectiveness is only going to be seen on T3 units, and somewhat on T4, above that the other MT orders are better.  If you are using them against lots of infantry then taking them out of AM is a good choice, but if you are facing lots of marines and T4 and higher armies, then MT edges it out.  Split fire is pretty self explanatory, you shoot at different targets, its nice situationally and is also good when dropping out of valks to hit multiple vehicles.  Tank hunter is good but limted effectiveness to scions as they only have a few weapons that can take advantage of it.  Against MCs, rending or sniper are better orders, as for rending you'll need 6s to wound most MCs anyways with hot shots, might as well get ap2 into the bargain.

As you look at it, there are definite roles that scions do better based out of the book they come from.  Scions from AM are better when using valkyries or vendettas, MT are much better monster and vehicle hunters.  AM can get larger volume of fire against T3 units, are about even at the 9-18" range for T4, but better once in 1-9" range for T4.  AM scions are better generalists while MT are better specialists.

When building your army you should consider this and one other important factor, that AM simply have more order givers, which is another advantage.  If you are looking for a platoon to ride in valkyries, you should take them from AM, if only a squad or two, they will be fine in MT.  If you are looking for a monster hunter unit, or a unit that can take on any tough threat, then you should be bring them from MT.

For most cases taking them from AM will get the job done, but they will lose effectiveness against tougher targets, so I would recommend as small detachment of MT scions specifically for monster and vehicle and character hunting.  When it comes to supporting them, then it depends on the army.  If you are going with the main AM book, then the Scions themselves are there as a support, as a strike force to take hard objectives.  Out of MT they take advantage of objective secured and will be tough to move but lack in long range support, which you will need Tauroxes, valkyries and maybe some AM artillery to help out, though the last is not necessary.

How you need to look at it is what do I want my scions to do, as each works well in different situations.  The MT orders are really good and when used properly, the scions can deal with most threats, except for horde units without additional support.  The AM are superior drop troops and dealing with larger units, but will struggle against higher toughness and have a harder time knocking out vehicles simply due to the number of weapons that can harm a vehicle.  There are a lot of other things to consider, but these are the main ones and it is important to note that there is no clear answer to which version of scion is better.

GG

24 comments:

  1. Of course, if you want the Scions as drop troops then deeply consider utilizing the air cavalry formation to get the most out of Valkyries and Scions. Expensive, yes. Effective, yes.

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  2. Currently I'm running mt's as allies for my guard. Running two 8 man squads with a vox each and a command squad with vox and volley guns.

    Having a good run of luck with them, although my deep strike rolls are rubbish!

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    1. Should prob have mentioned that I use them for dropping in to the enemy backfield and causing as much trouble as possible.

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  3. I've been mulling over it for a while weather to go with an allied detachment of MT or just use the AM Scions for my army. I like the idea of Objective Secured on the storm-troopers, and the MT orders are great, but in AM I might be able to order more than 2 or so squads a turn. While I still have some thinking to do, this article has helped in shelling out those advantages and disadvantages to each. The only problem is I don't really have a role they would very specifically play , leaning me towards using them straight from the AM book.

    On another subject, I was wondering how you felt about using the Unbound rules to make a tank company? I know Forge World has rules, but I've looked them over and some tank varients are more expensive, as well as upgrades,, and there is no FAQ currently to bring them into line with AM. They also don't have Wyverns, which are crazy effective, but an allied detachment could fix that easily. The only real upsides that I see in it is that it doesn't have any limits on Warlord traits for a Tank Commander, and the Hydra still has all its old rules for ignoring jinks and such like that. Oh, and Objective Secured on Leman Russes. But if I just used Unbound and the AM codex I could have more tanks than if I used the FW list, and I think the tank orders are better, even though you can't issue them to other squads. So which is better in your opinion? Forge World rules, or Unbound? Or should I stick with AM and just sacrifice some points on cheep troop units to meet min requirements?

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    1. Go at it a couple of ways. Build a normal combined arms detachment using cheap minimal troops. Also build an unbound one to do as you see fit, and give players an option, you'll find some people ok with unbound and other not so much. An unbound army of all tank commanders is the way to go if you do go that route. Until the FW list is FAQ'd I would stay away from it, as its kinda shenanigans to use that even though we know it will be updated in line with AM.

      As far as storm troopers, if you want them to be your core force, go with MT, if you are looking for a good generalist approach the AM will serve you fine.

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    2. Cool. Thanks. I think I'll do that. I haven't been able to get to my FLGS since the drop of the (more like since Christmas...) so I haven't been able to figure out people's opinions on 7th. So making the two lists would probably be good until I can find out my shops general consensus on 7th. And all tank commanders was what I was thinking for the unbound list. Hell, the bound list I was placing together had 4, with double force org ("Why can't I have all these heavies?"). Might actually wanna make 3 lists. One double force org, one single, and one unbound. If that FW list gets updated soon though I'll jump on that boat immediately. I mean super-scoring Lemans? Who wouldn't take them.

      I was thinking more of an allied detachment. AM is assuredly the main force. I just didn't know whether to have Scion allies or AM scions.

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    3. Personally I tend to stay away from forge world, it can get a little funny at times with all the different rules and people's attitudes. Also I don't really see the need for an unbound list, with just two basic vet squads, possibly in chimera's, maybe a command with MoO and OoF, tank commander and up to 9 Russ', unbound seems unnecessary.

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    4. Yeah, but I go to a Games Workshop store for all my gaming, and people havve used Forge World list there before. Hell, there is one guy who goes there who is known for setting up mass FW orders. Its a pretty Forge World friendly store. and the only reason for unbound would be to bypass the need for two vet squads and have those 200-300 points for another tank or two, and the capability to have an army of tank commanders. ;) Because tank commanders are awesome. Plus you can bypass the force org and be able to include Hydras and Wyverns as well as those 9+ Lemans...but then you can do that with two Combined Arms detachments.

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    5. I think I'll still do as you say: make the different lists, test them, and also see how my shop feels about them.

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    6. I'm still using the FW list for my tank army, it hasn't aged too badly. Now that all units can score it has received a pretty large boost in effectiveness. The higher points cost is not too bad, I see it as a tax for the army I want to run. Some variants are not that different, such as a demolisher with dozer costing the same, and a command vanquisher with LC/MM, co-ax and beast shells being a similar cost to Pask.

      I am looking forward to an FAQ to fix things up a bit, but for the moment it isn't a horrible list.

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    7. Cool. Any suggestions with lists?

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    8. My latest list has been:

      Company Command - Vanquisher,LC/MM,co-ax stubber, beast hunter.

      Demolisher - Dozer, flamer.
      Demolisher - Dozer, flamer.
      Demolisher - Dozer, flamer.

      Vulture - Punisher

      Stormlord - 4x sponsons.

      I'll admit that the Stormlord drastically changes the list, I have just been experimenting with a super heavy since 7th. I am probably going to replace it with something else to fill the role, either hellhounds, eradicators or something with barrage. I would love to have a Malcador Infernus, maybe I'll get one at some point.

      I can see IG allies being really useful too. Take a Commissar and a platoon, giving you decent bubble wrap and access to a manticore/wyvern. Add conscripts for the required amount of bodies, maybe a priest.

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    9. Hi, first time posting, just on the point of tank commanders, my local GW store led me to believe that a tank commander squadron counts as the HQ meaning that in a single foc chart at 2000 points you could have 9 russes and 2 vets squads in chimeras and still be battle bound. In a slightly larger game would allow you to have 12 in a single foc as the tank commander isn't under the leman russes profile as an upgrsde.

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    10. Tshannly1 you are correct. Tank commanders are an HQ choice, you simple use the heavy section for the purpose of points and upgrades. You can have 2 tank commander squadrons and 3 leman russ squadrons in your army, for 15 tanks, though you will need a large game to actually fit those points in.

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  4. You always talk about using vendetta's / valkries to drop your scions in enemy territory... but would it not just be easier and as viable to use Deep Strike special rule and spend the points elseware?

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    1. Well both are very effective vehicles, and they support the scions when on the ground. If you are looking at a few small expendable squads then deep strike works fine.

      In my experience I have had less success with deep striking than jumping out of valks

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    2. Im currently experimenting with Augur Array for safe deep strike... And surprisingly, its good on Hellhound. Fast strike from reserve into enemy field, survive one turn, drop ready Scions... and maybe another on Taurox, but you need substantial Scion force to use it.

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    3. Yeah, I'm thinking of putting one or two on scout sentinels, outflank with them and then deepstrike in on the sentinels

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    4. I thought about scout sentinels too. However, the sentinels would need to be on the board at the start of the turn you want to deep strike. This reduces their effectiveness.
      Personally, I am trying hellhounds.

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    5. True, scouting them would be another option, though would mean taking camo netting is very important and find a good piece of cover to hunker in turn 1. Plus if you use creed as warlord, roll twice on strategic and reroll to try and get the 3 infiltrating units trait to be even better.

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  5. The Imperial guard are the hammer and the Militarum Tempestus are like a needle IG just keeps hitting until they get the job done MT are our version of SM fast and hard hitting it all depends on the way you play but when they work together they can kill anything IG truly is one of the most diverse army out there.

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  6. With regards to order shortage, you can take 2 command squads and 2 troops, and repeat, as a detachment you still are force org legal and having 4 meltas and can take a chunk out of a land raider. Also taking 2 inquisitors gives you 6 servo skulls for some accurate deep strikes. You can re-roll your warlord trait for if you get twin linked grenades

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  7. How do you guys feel about using Servo-skulls from an inquisitorial detachment to provide 6 x Deep Strike beacons, max out MT squads; the only issue I see is a reliable "mass drop" on turn two, you need the advisers and inquisition reserve "+X to reserve rolls." Opinions?

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    1. It can work well, like a drop pod army it is an all in affair and it either works really well or really badly :). You'll need some good ground troops on the board, preferably fast ones too to be able to move up and support your drop when it comes in, keep a few squads in taurox primes to have a mobile fire base.

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